Joseph Grillo has a way with defying the odds. First it was leaving a working class background in industrial Worcester, Massachusetts for Boston to become a successful musician. Then his band Garrison (www.garrisonkills.com) emerged from the Allston scene to be signed to Revelation Records. Next came critical and popular acclaim for Garrison's first EP ("The Bend Before the Break") and LP ("A Mile in Cold Water"), and the opportunity to work with J. Robbins.

And now Joseph and Garrison have scored another unlikely victory with the band's second LP, "Be A Criminal." Like Garrison's previous releases "Be A Criminal" is an bracing race through tight hooks and searing rhythms. Unlike their previous work, the new record challenges the listener to question his or her concepts of law and conscience, consumer culture and the degree to which we are all party to society's ills. "Be A Criminal" also further distances Garrison from the suffocating labels that have stifled the creativity of so many rock bands before it.

Over a beer at Allston's Model Café, Joseph talked to Bettawreckonize's Paul Bugala about Garrison's maturation and the challenge of confronting and entertaining listeners.

Interview conducted in person by Paul Bugala.

Name: Joseph Grillo (guitar, vocals)
Band: Garrison

Bettawreckonize: You just came back from Europe, how was it?

Joseph Grillo: Well, it was April that we got back. But it was incredible. Like being a 12-year-old kid. We were totally overwhelmed.

BW: How do the scenes there differ from the States?

JG: It differs from region to region. For example, Germany has a very mature scene. They have been putting on shows for a while and there's infrastructure. This is an American-based music scene. So, nowhere is as jaded as the U.S. The major difference I'd say is there's usual no minimum drinking age there. So people that come to shows are from 15 to 40. Here you find that older people don't want to go to younger shows. And younger people can't get into clubs.

The States are also so saturated. If a band is playing one night and you miss it, they'll probably be back pretty soon. And there are just so many bands. Bands that get to play in Europe tend to be of a certain quality and have a record label.

There's also definitely less pressure to capture people's attention immediately. (In the States) if you don't catch them by the third song, their attention wanders because you might be on a bill with seven other bands. So, you won't play a slow song very early. In Europe if you break a sting they'll wait for you to replace in and tune.

BW: Are the venues different? Do find yourself playing a lot of squats?

JG: We played some squats and some clubs. It depends. The difference is that the squats have government funding, so they are much nicer. Financial we are treated much better. We don't have a rider or anything, but they see that you have a driver, that you eat before, and have a place to stay.

BW: How do they pay for all that?

JG: The turn outs are much larger and the promoters there take care of you.

BW: What were some the coolest band you played with there?

JG: There's a great German band called The Now Denial. And we played and did a split with English band called 100 Reason and another UK band called Tyler.

BW: So the new record (Be A Criminal) is very much a concept album. I've heard the saying that you have your entire life to write your first novel or album and a much shorter time to write the second novel or album or whatever. So there's a lot more pressure to produce in a much shorter period of time. Do you find that that pressure pushed in the direction of a concept album instead of something more general and introspective?

JG: That's an interesting question. Because you have your whole life to write your first record, I think there's a tendency to cram all of your experiences and insight into that one effort. When I did my first record I was 19 or 20.

I think that idea might have led us to write a more conceptual record, as Ed and I - who write the lyrics - worked with the architecture of criminal nature in our society. It was also a response to a lot of the band in our scene. A lot of them sing about their emotions and introspection and we wanted to do something different and take on the topic.

Introspection is comfortable. It's something you might have started to do in a journal when you were young. It is challenging to write an album about an insight into society and justice and still feel like you'll be able to look back on it when you're older and respect it.

BW: That brings up an interesting point, because there's always that chance that you can overstep your role as an entertainer if you try too hard to make your point politically. Billy Bragg is a good example of someone who wrestles with that. Do you ever feel like you're running that risk?

JG: Yeah, on one level you're working in this rock pop idea and you have to understand the limitations of that. We can't come close to the expression of something like jazz. There are certain topics I couldn't express in a rock song. But there is something visceral about rock music that makes it so powerful. There are songs that have made my hair stand on end for years.

BW: Then what is the limit of rock music and how do you draw the line?

At this point of my life, I feel I can affect people most by playing rock music. There are people who work in soup kitchens and volunteer who are doing work that is much more important than what I do. I comment on things from a certain point of view, but I'm guilty of some of the same things. I drive around in a van to tour and pollute the environment. I love plugging in my 100 watt amp and turning it up as loud as I can and wasting energy.

We also realize the circumstances of certain people. All of our backgrounds are extremely working class. We know want is great about an AC-DC song and understand the power of rock on that level.

BW: Talk about the artist's co-op The Space and the role that Worcester (Massachusetts) has plaid in the development of Garrison.

JG: Worcester has had a huge influence on the band, because it was the background from which we developed. Ed started The Space, well, with a lot of other people and worked tirelessly on that place for years.

The Space sort of replaced this place that we grew up with called the Worcester Artist Group. It was this amazing place where in one night you could see a hardcore band, a rock band, a hippie jam bang and amazing performance art and it would blow you away. And that played a huge role in our development.

Worcester is a fascinating place. I haven't met more amazingly talented incredible people who have such a big self-image problem.

Worcester also suffers from a disease of a lot of places that are somewhere between towns and cities, which is the urban sprawl and decay that chokes them.

BW: Do you find it difficult to stay in touch with that scene now that you are a national act?

JG: As you get older you grow out of certain things and of course you're not going to be as in touch. I try to stay in contact, but it is different than it was.

BW: Be A Criminal touches on issues like civil liberties. Do you think it would have been a different record if it had been written after the Patriot Act?

JG: That's a good question. Well, we're sensitive people and we may have toned it down. We got heat for a record that was released in November 2001 that focused on violence and all these dark topics.

BW: Of course, the record was recorded in August.

JG: Right, two weeks before September 11. But September 11 is creating an environment where our rights are being trampled. I mean Ashcroft is just taking frustrating liberties with the Patriot Act. And when your President goes to Brazil and asks the President if they have any black people, it is just embarrassing to be an American.